From: Ricardo SIGNES Date: 22:04 on 26 Oct 2005 Subject: monospace (unless ugly) --SSQrXjJAjSvYS5Wm Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Apple knows that good design is key. If you present the user with a beautiful experience, they will keep coming back, right? That's why they've always spent so much money on having good typesetting. I mean, hey, they kern fonts on screen! You know when this is really great? When you're viewing source. Today I was looking at Net::Domain::TLD on the CPAN (the hatefulness of NDT and the CPAN can wait) and I noticed something... http://search.cpan.org/src/ALEXP/Net-Domain-TLD-1.5/TLD.pm These lines: q{et} =3D> q{Ethiopia}, q{fi} =3D> q{Finland}, didn't line up. Why? Because fi is a kernable letter pair, of course! Lining up columns is nice and all, but it just doesn't compare to the awesomeness of having your f dot your i! This hate brought to you by Safari Version 2.0.1 (412.5). --=20 rjbs --SSQrXjJAjSvYS5Wm Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDX+9j5IEwYcR13KMRAlPeAKCSljwCsz8C9NhRmjSi2uA7HJe48QCcDBzh 0zyYy4nrWXKyocjx9ByOGX8= =d14T -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --SSQrXjJAjSvYS5Wm--
From: Jeremy Weathers Date: 00:08 on 27 Oct 2005 Subject: Re: monospace (unless ugly) > Apple knows that good design is key. If you present the user with a > beautiful experience, they will keep coming back, right? That's why > they've always spent so much money on having good typesetting. I > mean, hey, they kern fonts on screen! >=20 > You know when this is really great? When you're viewing source.=20 > Today I was looking at Net::Domain::TLD on the CPAN (the hatefulness > of NDT and the CPAN can wait) and I noticed something... >=20 > http://search.cpan.org/src/ALEXP/Net-Domain-TLD-1.5/TLD.pm >=20 > These lines: >=20 > q{et} =3D> q{Ethiopia}, > q{fi} =3D> q{Finland}, >=20 > didn't line up. Why? Because fi is a kernable letter pair, of > course! Lining up columns is nice and all, but it just doesn't > compare to the awesomeness of having your f dot your i! Actually, the combined "fi" is called a ligature. Kerning is adjusting the space between letters. > This hate brought to you by Safari Version 2.0.1 (412.5). I also have Safari 2.0.1 (412.5) and for me the letters line up. There must be some difference in default mono-spaced font (mine appears to be Courier 13) or some other utility that is replacing the letters with that ligature on your system and not on mine. (It may be on my end, but I have no idea what it would be.) --=20 Jeremy Weathers Sony-Ericsson: We put the "slow" in "Damn, this crappy phone is slow!" - Wil Shipley
From: Ricardo SIGNES Date: 00:22 on 27 Oct 2005 Subject: Re: monospace (unless ugly) --rZRBnaF0gvoyXYbn Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable * Jeremy Weathers <jer@xxxx.xxx> [2005-10-26T19:08:08] > > didn't line up. Why? Because fi is a kernable letter pair, of > > course! Lining up columns is nice and all, but it just doesn't > > compare to the awesomeness of having your f dot your i! >=20 > Actually, the combined "fi" is called a ligature. Kerning is adjusting > the space between letters. And if you have an f and an i and want them to look like a ligature, you kern them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ligature_(typography)#Kerning_as_an_alternative in fact helpfully reminds us that, The fonts for the Macintosh computer include a "dotless 'i'", which (aside from its necessity in printing Turkish) facilitates kerning "fi" and "Ti" instead of using a ligature. > I also have Safari 2.0.1 (412.5) and for me the letters line up. There > must be some difference in default mono-spaced font (mine appears to be > Courier 13) or some other utility that is replacing the letters with > that ligature on your system and not on mine. (It may be on my end, but > I have no idea what it would be.) Now I'm even angrier! --=20 rjbs --rZRBnaF0gvoyXYbn Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDYA/S5IEwYcR13KMRAtNPAJ4ps4MsCVIAGnzdxSu9iTL2eoUaEgCfYS9W wPepyrhlac8dWNs4Y0sH3BE= =HDAe -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --rZRBnaF0gvoyXYbn--
From: Matt McLeod Date: 00:32 on 27 Oct 2005 Subject: Re: monospace (unless ugly) Ricardo SIGNES wrote: > > I also have Safari 2.0.1 (412.5) and for me the letters line up. There > > must be some difference in default mono-spaced font (mine appears to be > > Courier 13) or some other utility that is replacing the letters with > > that ligature on your system and not on mine. (It may be on my end, but > > I have no idea what it would be.) > > Now I'm even angrier! It's not doing it on that page for me, either. Same Safari build, tried a couple of different monospaced fonts. The thing I would be suspecting here would be the system locale. Can't see much reason why they'd want to kern a monospaced font, nor can I find any way to make my system do so. Matt
From: Peter da Silva Date: 03:16 on 27 Oct 2005 Subject: Re: monospace (unless ugly) On Oct 26, 2005, at 4:04 PM, Ricardo SIGNES wrote: > http://search.cpan.org/src/ALEXP/Net-Domain-TLD-1.5/TLD.pm I'm using Monaco 10 as my monospace font in Safari. Works ffine ffor me.
From: Ricardo SIGNES Date: 04:00 on 27 Oct 2005 Subject: Re: monospace (unless ugly) --evOcBaiMpN7OEvsd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable * Peter da Silva <peter@xxxxxxx.xxx> [2005-10-26T22:16:49] > On Oct 26, 2005, at 4:04 PM, Ricardo SIGNES wrote: > >http://search.cpan.org/src/ALEXP/Net-Domain-TLD-1.5/TLD.pm >=20 > I'm using Monaco 10 as my monospace font in Safari. > Works ffine ffor me. Argh! \{fi}rst, to Jeremy, I apologize: while /normally/ Macs have kerned f and i together (as Wikipedia said), in this case it is actually replacing the "fi" with a ligature. Observe the hate: http://rjbs.manxome.org/hates/safari There is a setting for the font to use ligatures under the gear menu's "Typography..." inspector in the font selector. Changing this to "no" does not seem to stick. Or do anything at all. Similar, Monaco has this setting by default "off" and turning it on does nothing, and does not "stick." --=20 rjbs --evOcBaiMpN7OEvsd Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDYELo5IEwYcR13KMRAsg7AKCNPCN6tqkqDEyB0UNQaC6KXmDVrgCeMBJ6 D9WlvqJtMD895jj5hlZX38M= =+a3b -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --evOcBaiMpN7OEvsd--
From: Peter da Silva
Date: 12:44 on 27 Oct 2005
Subject: Re: monospace (unless ugly)
My Mac Hate right now is the fact that you CAN'T get Mail.app to let
you edit a response a plain text, no matter how hard you try... it
still replaces leading "> > > " with stupid colored bars and forces you
to have to edit around them very very carefully to do a normal inline
reply. However...
> \{fi}rst, to Jeremy, I apologize: while /normally/ Macs have kerned f
> and i together (as Wikipedia said), in this case it is actually
> replacing the "fi" with a ligature.
Well, yeh, it would have to be. I can't see how there can be any
kerning in a fixed font.
> Observe the hate: http://rjbs.manxome.org/hates/safari
Courier is hateful in so many ways. The abominable stroke fonts that
were the first digital versions of Courier took an ugly but at least
well-formed font and not only made it uglier but they destroyed all the
fine detail of the font. Then there was the proliferation of versions
of Courier with different weights and aspect ratios and often missing
important visual cues. Then they got "enhanced" in all kinds of strange
ways... like, adding ligatures? Jesus!
I don't know if there's a version of Courier that's anything like the
Courier you got on an IBM typeball, but there's sure a lot of really
screwed up fonts called Courier, and they're all ugly as sin. Give me
Letter Gothic or even Prestige any day.
On my Mac I have "Courier" and "Courier New". I use Monaco and Lucida
Sans Typewriter.
So...
Which Courier are you using, and why are you using Courier at all?
From: Jeremy Weathers Date: 16:19 on 27 Oct 2005 Subject: Re: monospace (unless ugly) > On my Mac I have "Courier" and "Courier New". I use Monaco and Lucida > Sans Typewriter. I use the freeware Anonymous as my monospace typeface of choice. There are a few characters that looked strange to me at first, but I find it quite readable and (most importantly) it's creator actually bothered to differentiate 1, I, and l as well as 0 and O. <http://www.ms-studio.com/FontSales/anonymous.html>; --=20 Jeremy Weathers Sony-Ericsson: We put the "slow" in "Damn, this crappy phone is slow!" - Wil Shipley
From: Ricardo SIGNES Date: 04:33 on 29 Oct 2005 Subject: Re: monospace (unless ugly) --oWj5HoUXCVjyUFuT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable * Peter da Silva <peter@xxxxxxx.xxx> [2005-10-27T07:44:19] > On my Mac I have "Courier" and "Courier New". I use Monaco and Lucida=20 > Sans Typewriter. > So... >=20 > Which Courier are you using, and why are you using Courier at all? I was using Courier (plain old Courier) because it was the default. I suppose I never noticed because I usually browse in OmniWeb, which does not do this hateful thing. Courier New is "better" in that it doesn't screw up spacing, but it's even uglier. I've switched Safari to use Monaco. (Normally I use ProFont for things like terminals and gVim.) Another fun thing that was being ligated? dashes into emdashes. +----------+ +-----+ | moronic! | displayed like | moronic! | +----------+ +-----+ --=20 rjbs --oWj5HoUXCVjyUFuT Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDYu2I5IEwYcR13KMRApZfAJ9WDblIACHyx/0ifmn3csXOtToikwCdE7ub eY5MCv4wFuD4PKjpPWfU+A0= =OSsx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --oWj5HoUXCVjyUFuT--
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